...but watching Dick Cheney vs. John Edwards is like watching a sushi chef work with a sledgehammer.
John Edwards made how much as a lawyer? I am revising my already-low opinion of trial juries down an order of magnitude. Edwards is doing a horrible job of countering. He's not doing it at all. He just falls back on calling Cheney a liar and the administration a failure.
Counter the points, counselor.
And conflict isn't failure, fuckhead. It's called fighting a war. Go back to the state you couldn't win for you OR Kerry.
I am listening to this on radio. I really wish I could see Edwards' demeanor right now.
Cheney is explaining how sanctions work, our posture to Iraq, Iran, North Korea, and has mentioned A.Q. Khan...
Edwards is casting the fear fly - "how many countries will we attack?".
The ones that harbor terrorists you preening little shit. (Not the V.P.'s response)
Haliburton!!! I'm glad I'm not a drinker anymore. I think there's going to be a dip in the national vodka reserve tonight...
Cheney rebuts - See FactCheck.com (URL to come)(here) for in-depth examination of Haliburton charges. Edwards is equating investigation with guilt, and the no-bid contract with corruption....talking points.
Edwards straddling a hugeous fence on Israel. Ah, folksy story. He was in Israel about the time as the Isbarro (sic, phonetic) Pizzaria bombing; ambiguous how close, but he intimated it was "there but for the grace of God go I"....
Ah...now we have to 'confront' Saudi...and Iran.
How, Senator, without we have bases?....(not a V.P. answer)
Cheney OUCH bringing up Edward's infrequent visits to the Senate; "first time I've ever met you (after being president of Senate for four years) was TONIGHT...and called him on his poor record.
OMG....he's calling Cheney on voting conservative. Will Cheney say "I was there to vote."?.....
Grrrrrr....nope. "Not a distinguished record"...no more to be said.
Economic policy - to Cheney. Talking points answer....wait, concentrating on education. References NCLB - including Kennedy's cosponsorship - but what will Edwards do about dodging the employment and poverty?
Cleveland highest poverty rate in the country? He's never been to the Brownsville triangle in South Texas.
Edwards rolling through talking points...outsourcing, lost jobs, worst employment since EVER...blahblahblah....
Cheney comes back with blanket effect of tax cuts. Calls Edwards on the validity of his numbers.
Edwards rebuts...no numbers, "millions" in poverty, "millions" unemployed, healthcare costs up...
Good question to Edwards - Where's the budget balancing going to come with your economic (Author: Bread and Circuses) policy...?
Tax increases on 200K+ bracket. Tax cuts for a shitload of "please vote for me" demographics. Attack corporations. I lost his thread near the end there. Rhetoric overload.
Cheney rebuttal - beautiful. Clear layout of fundamental differences in fiscal/tax/economic philosophy between the contenders. 50% deficit reduction in the deficit as five year goal.
Kerry cosponsored 600 (HUNDRED???) times to REDUCE taxes? I'll have to check that out; that's from Edwards.
Question on SSM. Good answer; state issue, and not one for courts to legislate...
Edwards doesn't counter; returns to damn the rich. I see a beautiful opening for Cheney here: Just how much are Edwards and Teresa paying as a rate, since they use the same loopholes and shields available to any sub-s chapter filer...?
No rebut from Cheney. Exchange with moderator -
*flash* Gay marriage hurts Kedwards more than it helps. Edwards is dancing on eggshells to not offend anyone who isn't a radical gay activist. Now he's trying to sell that "equal treatment" won't be applied to gay marriage passed in one state.
Right. And monkeys fly out of my butt on a regular basis.
*interruption - right down Ken Jenning's win number for the One True Love who bowls on Tuesday's....*
Cheney mentioning tort reform. Kerry has voted against liability reform ten times...Cheney believes that Edwards has too, but names no number.
Edwards is piling sand. Calling for another layer of peer-review (NOT his words). Referencing a valid personal injury case (swimming pool cover outfit that sold a dangerous product). Doesn't mention why malpractice insurance costs over 200K a year for a residents without a previous suit loss (my figures/analogy - nothing from Cheney).
Edwards claims that tort costs are half of one percent of medical costs. See monkeys remark, above.
Another Kedwards plan to bring down costs, and STAND UP to drug and insurance companies...
There's got to be a huge fucking hangar in the middle of a cornfield stuffed with all these plans....with a version for each focus group you can kill a lot of trees quick.
Cheney responds with line by line explanation how medicare traps doctors...and how sub-s shields the rich (law supported by Kerry, 1997) from paying for medicare... Edwards rebuts I pay my legal taxes/HALIBURTON does business offshore to dodge taxes!!!
AIDS question to Cheney - excluding Africa/elsewhere - I missed the identified victim group mentioned by the moderator. African American women were the specific group. Cheney concedes he wasn't aware of the specific infection rate there - lays out what the administration has done, and why...
Edwards - We'll DOUBLE the fifteen billion, and deliver it in wheelbarrow tomorrow. Ties in Dafur as an aside. Repeats five million lost health care insurance and 45 million uninsured numbers...seems to think that not having health insurance contributes to AIDS...huh?
To Edwards - what makes you fit for VP, a heart beat away from the presidency?
"We won't be liars". In many more words, of course. Said "kill" regarding terrorists. The ONE thing we know about this administration...a long resume doesn't equal judgement. ? Says kill again. Stop spread of nuclear weapons. Strengthen military. 40K more regulars, double spec ops, health care...what did she pull that string on his back?
Cheney rebut - back to original "Why fit question" - didn't pick Cheney for electoral vote (ouch) and concedes that Wyoming's three votes ended up important. Points out he has no future political ambition. Stands on his public record for effective service in office and business.
Edwards counter - slurps Kerry, referring to last Thursday as landmark example of performance. Cheney points out that Bush has done the real thing every day for four years. Good point.
*distraction*....
Personal stories...?...Cheney first in family to graduate college. Was a union electrician for six years. Regards that potential for terrorist attacks and our policies are vital responsibilities. Stands on willingness to use force aggressively when and whereever we identify a threat.
Edwards rebuts - agrees that terror must be confronted. We'll do it better...cites lack of a standard, unified terror watch list as things undone. Cheney declines rebut. No need, I agree...
Hindsight question..."What's wrong with a little flip-flop now and again?" to Edwards. That's a hell of a question. Edwards denies flipflops. Points to conflict=failure meme to indict war as failure. *sigh*
Now off on a tangent....trying to rehash combat pay talking point AND health insurance AND patients Bill of Rights AND something else...?
Cheney rebuts - denies any consistency. Cites Vote for war/against funding. Mentions use of hindsight by Kerry as cover for condemning administration. Points out that we have concentrated on making Iraqis responsible for their own security/sovereignty as fast as possible - which is what we set out to do.
Edwards rebuts - damning NCLB as underfunded, stat 800 teachers in Cleveland laid off...
Cheney - both Edwards and Kerry voted for NCLB. As well as Patriot one and two...and HSA. Points out both candidates have condemned all three as polls have driven them.
Last question - retrospect - Cheney regrets inability of bipartisan effort to be realized. Remembers working with Foley and another senior democrat in years past and enjoying it. Is committed to working as hard as possible to engage as many legislators as possible....
Edwards blames Bush for dividing country. *coughcoughBULLSHIThackcough*
Back to healthcare stats talking points. They are going to make all healthcare the SAME AS CONGRESSIONAL COVERAGE????
It's another Global Test moment. Thank you, Mr. Edwards.
More health care talking points...
Cheney rebuts - cites Medicare reform bill. Kerry Edwards both voted against it.
Edwards - more health care talking points...'we're the little peoples' guys' Populism just jars when coming from millionaires/billionaires...
Closing statements:
Edwards: America is on the edge of disaster. Bush and Cheney don't understand. Another plan (outsourcing slap) (big FUCKING warehouse out there) for middle class success....
Cheney: Proud to have served as VP. Cites growing economy. Cites commitment to strength of economy, and country...declares (restates support) of Bush Doctrine, and points out that citizens will make the decision which course to follow, and which leadership to follow.
Moderator thanks students and faculty of Case Western in closing, delivers schedule for remaining debate. Ms. Gwen Ifill signs off.
Good debate. Cheney labelled as CEO of "war contractor" HALLIBURTON by CBS pundit; the pundits characterize the debate as feisty. I didn't see it that way.
I score Cheney A/A, Edwards B/D style/substance.
I believe that Edwards had to present concrete policy alternatives to do much good; it was clear from the first that that was never given serious consideration. I also thought that Edwards could rise somewhere above petulant on the attack...but that does not appear to be the case.
Maybe because their alternatives don't extend beyond "we will do the same thing, just better", no?
It's all over here but for the punditry. We'll see what tomorrow brings.
If you've made it this far, I thank you for your indulgence. I've never done something like this before.
I'm a Tolkein voter; we are in a climactic struggle between good and evil. The choice of leadership before us is not much of a contest for me. If the Democrats could get past being out of power for being their motivation to seek high office I might take them seriously.
Until such time I will continue to support Bush, and the Bush Doctrine, as long as I believe we are being led with a commitment to win.
Goodnight.
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